Converting a 1990 audi 100 (NF engine) from FWD to AWD

[mcquattro]

Hi everyone,
I am a huge Typ44 fan. I have a 1990 audi 100 turbo quattro(MC2 engine) , but before Christmas i had a pretty serious accident. An idiot was speeding in town and and entered head-on in my car(more precisely we colided on the driver's side/half...almost exactly like in the EURONCAP tests). I had around 30km/h(the gearbox is still stuck in 2nd gear, the clutch pedal broke during impact...so i hope the gearbox is not busted), but he had enough speed to total both cars. I had my seatbelt on and i walked away only with a pain in my right hand's wrist.
I have the possibility to buy a really cheap 1990 audi 100 NF FWD. Assuming that the gearbox and the drive shafts from my car are ok, how hard is it to convert the new car from FWD to quattro? Are the rear axle and gearbox a bolt-on swap or the body of an AWD car is different from FWD's one? Or is it even possible to do this? Oh and i want to keep the NF engine on the new car, would this engine fit the gearbox from the MC engine? At the moment is more of a curiosity but i would like such a project for the summer.

Thank you.

And sorry for my crappy english .

[turbaxel]

Hi "mcquattro",

very sorry for the accident, glad you (more ore less) walked away from it.
NCAP images?

Everything is possible in principle A Quattro conversion of an FWD Type 44 is nothing for the faint hearted, though
AFAIK, you'd had to change the complete bottom plate (especially the rear axle mounts).
The Quattro drive train (esp. the gear box) is also much bigger. The FWD's gear box tunnel is much smaller, hence.

I (given my full, sane mind) wouldn't think about doing it. It's far easier to buy the FWD, wait a while for a nice Quattro and then be done with that You could sell a few parts off of the wreck, also.

Just my 2cents
turbaxel

P.S.: No need - at all - to justify your english

[mcquattro]

Thanks for the answer.

It was more just a curiosity right now, i would have liked a project like this assuming that all the parts i need from my car are ok, but i have my doubts...the engine was moved slightly to the left,also the gearbox moved and probably the drive shaft from the gearbox to the rear axle is bent. The NF 100 i was thinking to buy sits outside for the last 2years, it needs a fuel pump, AC compressor and the steering-rack, parts that i can use from my wreck but the interior looks very well(if a bit dusty), it's well equiped and the price is very tempting.
My turbo quattro was my daily driver, but with the money from the insurance i would like to buy something newer(an A4 maybe) as the 100 turbo quattro models are kinda expensive(the nice ones at least ) , but i would prefer not to completely quit on my love for typ44 and have one as a second car. The central tunel from the quattro model is the same with the ones from fwd version on the post-88 cars? From pics they look similar(inside at least). I had before a 1986 100 with the 2l engine(KP if i remember corectly) and the central tunel inside that car was much lower.
If the conversion implies cutting and welding and improvisations this ideea fails from the start, i would do this only if i could move bits and pieces from a car to the other without any adaptations. So, first i want to find out if is possible, then to inspect that everything i need from my car for the conversion is ok. I read somewhere a thread about an A4 B7 fwd to quattro conversion...and that appeared to be a pretty straight forward conversion(new gearbox, drive shaft, rear axle, new gas tank) but a bit pricey.

Hi "mcquattro",

very sorry for the accident, glad you (more ore less) walked away from it.
NCAP images?

I meant that the impact type is very similar to the standard frontal(40%width of the car) crash-test EuroNCAP does. Actually the damage on my car is very similar to the damage from this 100 C4 crash-test done by AMS, even how much the front pillar deformed is very similar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZDCBkI8Feu8

I miss my car so much, and to make things worse we had snow for the last three weeks(since the accident). Here are two pics of my car 10-11hours before the accident:

[turbaxel]

Hi,

If the conversion implies cutting and welding and improvisations this ideea fails from the start, i would do this only if i could move bits and pieces from a car to the other without any adaptations.

I should think, you'd definately have to weld. The rear (esp. the rear axle mounts) are incompatible between the Quattro and the FWD. So your plan falls to peaces that early, I'm afraid.

(Just to cover the rest: The gearboxes and the engines are physically interchangeble/compatible. You'd have to look out for the add. space required by the Quattro gearbox, though. Gear ratio will also be different. The middle/central tunnel of the post face lift models I know is similar from the B-pillar to the rear end. The front (where the larger Quattro gear box sits) is different, AFAIK. Even though it may look similar. Sorry.)

I meant that the impact type is very similar to the standard frontal(40%width of the car) crash-test EuroNCAP does.

I thought so. I'm just interested in any images highlighting the safety features of the cars.

I miss my car so much, and to make things worse we had snow for the last three weeks(since the accident). Here are two pics of my car 10-11hours before the accident:

Well, then I'm sorry. But you (most likely) wont be happy with this deal. There've been quite a few people down that road, before. None of them where happy. Most of them tried to get their car back.
An A4 is just a car, even though it might be a darn good one

So don't listen to someone else. Listen to your heart.

Just my 2cents again...

turbaxel

[mcquattro]

Thanks again for the quick response.That A4 b7 conversion(http://www.audizine.com/forum/showthrea ... FWD-to-AWDand http://audizine.com/forum/showthread.ph ... lmost-DONE if someone is interested) gave me hope , but anyhow i think parts of my transmission are damaged. I kinda liked the ideea to save something from my car and to save another typ44. Maybe I will still buy it and put it back on the road, i need to see it again(i last saw it a year ago or so, it's of a friend) and inspect it closely and hope i won't find mouse nests inside. I know an A4 doesn't compare with my old car, and even if i find a nice 1.8T quattro i still won't be as happy as i was with my old car but i need something a bit more modern for now. I won't quit the ideea of having another typ44 turbo quattro, and hopefully i will one day have a 200 20v.

Here are some pics of the car crashed:

The front driver's side pillar is bent, the clutch pedal broke, the acceleration pedal hits the central tunel, the steering column moved upwards a bit, the gearbox lever moved from its original position, procon-ten worked a bit even if the engine and gearbox didn't moved significally backwards(both seatbelts are now locked). In the engine bay everything that's right of the engine is busted. The other car was an opel vectra from 2001, his roof collapsed too, not as much as mine...but his injuries were more severe(back, chest and neck pains), he didn't remembered if he had his seatbelt on but he thinks he had it on and the airbags deployment was very violent because he had the seat moved close to steering wheel.

here's a blurry pic from the accident scene:

[turbaxel]

Hi mcquattro,

now I'm really glad and really sorry for you.

Glad, because the accident was quite a hefty one. Glad you've made it without to much injury. The defomed A-pilar / roof is pretty scary. Is the procon-ten steering wheel actually closer the dashboard now?

Sorry, because the car (especially the interior) looked almost new. Very impressive. At least, you could move the complete stuff to the new car.

If I'd be you, I'd try to take a close look at the FWD one you mentioned. If it's ok, then just use it as a temporary solution.

The Quattro conversions you linked seems to be pretty straightforward on those new models. But not on the 44, I'm afraid.

Good luck!
Axel

[mcquattro]

Thanks for the compliments on the car. When it was clean it sure did turned heads around, i got compliments in gas stations, car washes...things an A4 will never get however mint they are(maybe an S4/rs4) . Once standing at a light a man came to ask me if i don't want to sell it. I'm getting sentimental now, but i already miss it a lot.
The steering wheel moved, i dunno if it moved forwards, but upwards it surely did. The dash was push upwards, and the glove box door won't stay closed now. I don't think the engine/gearbox moved enough backwards to actually do something...but the procon-ten cables got tensioned enough to at least block both seatbelts in the position they were at the time of the crash.

I will miss seeing "quattro" written on my rear windshield when i look in my rear view mirror.

[turbaxel]

Well,

here's another idea. In Germany there are still quite a few of them around. It's even possible to find the very same color, since it's been used quite often on those "Sport" models.

I do have a slightly modified FWD Sport Turbo Avant in the same/close Cayenne-Red-Metallic.





More images in the "Treffen" section of the Audi 100 Self Docu:
http://audi100.selbst-doku.de/Main/Bild ... genTreffen

So you could find a *identical* Quattro Sedan for I'd guess 1200€, time provided. "Sport" versions are slightly costier, though.

[mcquattro]

Wow Your car looks great. I thought of that ideea. On mobile.de i found 3-4 turbo quattro models before Christmas, the cheapest was a 2500E Break(avant) and it was slightly damaged in front. At the cost of the car i will need to add another 4-500E to bring it here, but the main problem wouldn't be a the cost of the car. To register a newly imported car here of that vintage would cost me another 5000E(vs 600-800E for a 96-97 1.8T A4). And btw....i know your site from a long time ago, managed to extract some information from the autotranslated version when i needed it. Also i know this forum since it was created, even if it is in german...i only wished all the threads were in english . A few years ago it was really dificult to find english resources on audi 100 on the internet. But i bought the Bentley manuals for 100 which were great.

[turbaxel]

Hi and thanks for the kind remarks

I'm sorry, but the english version is still autotranslated:
http://audi100.selbst-doku.de/Main/EnglishHomepage
It might still be of help

http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showD ... =140107020
Just to give you something to think about

Is the tax/toll cost a percentage, that would go down with the total cost of the buy? Or is it fixed penalty on "new" old cars?



And finally, the auto-translated forum:
http://translate.google.de/translate?u= ... =&ie=UTF-8
(not too shabby, I think)

[mcquattro]

Unfortunately it's a fixed tax, an ECO tax, paid once, for newly registered vehicles in our country. It's calculated based on engine capacity, EURO-norm(euro1-5, non-euro)and first registration date. It's a kinda stupid tax, for example: for a 1996 euro2 1.8(turbo or non-turbo) A4(actually the mark and make doesn't matter) that tax would be under 1000E; for a 2000/2001 EURO3 1.8(turbo or non-turbo) the tax would be over 2000E. I'm from Romania btw. The 100 NF is not out of the picture for now, and it's well equipped too: el. windows, cruise control, climatronic, central locking, original radio... from what i remember.

[turbaxel]

Yeah,

it seems to be similar in Austria.
Ok, then back to the start. Try to get/fix up the cheap FWD, then (possibly) to seek around for a (local) Quattro.

Good luck

Wait: The older, the cheaper? And is the date of first registration (in D or Ro) or the date of import relevant?

[mcquattro]

The first registration date of the car,wherever it was outside our country.Yes, the older is cheaper. The ideea behind this was: the older the car is the less number of years it will remain on the road. Clearly the guy who tought the formula to calculate this tax is an idiot, according to this tax an euro2 car from 1996-7 will polute less than an Euro3 from 2001. The ECO tax will be changed from 1 feb 2011,this basically equals increased tax overall the EURO-norm range. With the new tax it would cost me over 7000E to register a turbo quattro audi 100 from 1990 if it has euro1 or 17000E for non-euro. This is madness!

This tax applies only to newly imported cars in our counrty, if i buy a car already registered in Romania i don't need to pay this tax.

[turbaxel]

Then a 1989 Typ44 should be rather cheap, shouldn't it?

[mcquattro]

Unfortunately not. It's a stupid tax or at least very stupid calculated.

[turbaxel]

OK,

this is Mobile again, albeit in english and focussed upon romanian type 44s:
klick mich!http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/searc ... dCarSeals=[/longurl]

Good Luck!!!

[mcquattro]

With a bit of luck, next weekend I will have that NF-100 started and brought home. It needs a bit of work: a rear door is not original(sounds thin if knocked )and it's in a different color of the rest of the body so i will swap it with the door from my car, the front bonnet also needs re-painting, the injection is missing(this is not a problem), it needs a new fuel pump. This are the main minuses, but it has some nice pluses too: the price , the interior looks good, wery well equipped(climatronic-complete with AC compresor, cruise control, manual sunroof, electric adjusting headlights, headlights washers,electric mirrors and windows, original radio,central locking). I hope that with a bit of work it will be nice 100 Also I will inspect it closely to see if the Fwd to Awd conversion is possible. I hope I will post some pictures of the car next weekend.

Thanks again for the tips and help.

[turbaxel]

Great.

I hope you'll be *happy* with it. My FWD is my Wintercar, it never got stucked

[mcquattro]

Last week-end i brought the new car home. The car started yesterday, but it would die on idle so it needs a bit of adjusting. After the engine will be done(it will also get new oil, new belts, new filters), the braking system needs to be inspected...after that most of the problems would be only cosmetic ones, mostly on the exterior, the overall paint is in a very bad shape, but the body is very straight(no dents). The interior is in a very good condition(even if i'm not a big fan of the color), excepting the headliner which is loose(any tips on this?). In the end i think it will be a nice looking 100, just needs a bit of work . And i convinced myself that the FWD to AWD conversion is not only a bolt-on swap .

After a vacuum the interior looked a lot better, also the leather around the gear leaver is already changed.

Exterior after a wash:

Hi and thanks for the kind remarks I'm sorry, but the english version is still autotranslated:http://audi100.selbst-doku.de/Main/EnglishHomepageIt might still be of help http://suchen.mobile.de/fahrzeuge/showD ... =140107020Just to give you something to think about Is the tax/toll cost a percentage, that would go down with the total cost of the buy? Or is it fixed penalty on "new" old cars? And finally, the auto-translated forum:http://translate.google.de/translate?u= ... =&ie=UTF-8(not too shabby, I think)

Hmmmm....

Delete this

New user profile just to say this?!

[turbaxel]

Hi mcquattro,

looks great so far. Just an idea: Get white front-blinkers, red "V8" tail lights and it'll already look much better.

Then throw in your interior, the blue one is just weired. Even if you drive around long enough that way, it'll make you dizzy as well

The head liner is a well know problem with older cars. Unfortnately the same goes for the type44. There's not much help, short of replacing the headliners cover with new original quality stuff. (Replacing the damaged one with another old one is no good. It'll soon also come down.

So I'd suggest to cautiously remove the headliner on your killed car and reworking it. Until then the fallen one can (temporarely) be put back in place with strong magnets. These are often found in diy/hardware stores fish depts.
http://audi100.selbst-doku.de/Main/DachhimmelEntfernen
http://audi100.selbst-doku.de/Main/Dachhimmel%c4ndern




Question:
Is the metal sheet of the removed door really thinner? Or is it just missing the black damping material inside? That way you could get around painting the parts.

[mcquattro]

Hi,

Thanks for the tips. White blinkers it will definitely get, the V8 tail lights i think are harder to get around here, actually it originaly had the V8 tail lights...but they were swaped by my friend on his 100 turbo sport(that car is silver...so you can guess where the hood and the door went ). I also need to mount from my car the dampening material from under the front hood. Some of the exterior plastics are decolored(front bumper, mirror casings, rear number plate holder...), those that are intact on my old car will get on the new one, the front bumper i will try to paint it black and see how it turns out. The silver door is not an OEM part and it's actually made from a thinier sheet of metal, it also feels very flimsy. Inside the door it looks similar to the door on my car, it also had the same dampening meterial....but anyway the door needs to be painted, so no biggie to swap the doors. After the hood and the door are painted, i think i will try a professional paint polish...maybe that will bring back to life the color in the paint and kill most of the scratches.

I won't swap the interior, it feels very solid and all the materials are in very good shape(except the headliner of course ). Plus, the front seats have an aditional adjusting in the backrest and an original armrest and i like them both . The headliner on my quattro was in perfect shape, looked like new...unfortunately my quattro didn't had a sunroof and the new one does. Maybe I will also get a set of 15" alloys, i can't use the alloys(summer tires) and steelies(winter tires) from the quattro(14" 4bolts vs 15" 5bolts). The instrument cluster needs some resoldering(the problem with the blinkers and high beam lights from the IC that are on all the time). The button for the electric headlights height adjusting doesn't do anything...so i need to check that too.

There are still many small things to do...but i think it's worth it.

[turbaxel]

Hi,

the V8 tail lights i think are harder to get around here...

http://sites.internet.lu/folders/custom ... 200_v8.htm
These are *not* OEM.

Some of the exterior plastics are decolored...

No need for any serious action, just get and use the right recolor product. I searched quite a while for this:
http://www.sonax.de/Autopflege/Produkte ... kendisplay
I would fully recommed this as it's looking very original and rather easy/cheap. Just keep in mind, you need 4 applications to get the full effect. It holds up nicely against daily use/abuse. I would reapplicate every six months or so.

unfortunately my quattro didn't had a sunroof and the new one does.

Once again, there's no use in putting an old, thermally also stressed head liner into the other car. The head liners backside orange foam can only take so much heat, then it comes down, as well. Been there, done that You actually have to rework it.

The instrument cluster needs some resoldering(the problem with the blinkers and high beam lights from the IC that are on all the time). The button for the electric headlights height adjusting doesn't do anything...so i need to check that too.

How about swapping this with you old Q?

There are still many small things to do...but i think it's worth it.

Sure.
Btw.: If you want to first use a reall good wax on your car, which can fill (and hence optically remove small scatches on i's own), go for this:
http://www.wackchem.com/a1-speed-wax-de ... d-wax.html

That stuff easyly coverts a heavily micro scratched banger into a shiny youngtimer Of course it can't flodd deep scratches or dents. But it also stays six months of dayly use.

The winter car was prepped/protected that way

Have fun,
Axel
Gotta switch ya nick to 'NfFWD' or somethin'...

[mcquattro]

Hi,
Thanks for the product tips. Most of the plastic bits i will swap from the quattro because they are in a very good condition, only the front bumper is really an issue. I will see what i do next about the paint after the car will be back from the painter and see what he says about it. An overall paint is pretty expensive and i don't know if it's worth it, maybe a paint polish will provide good results. Maybe i will find a V8 in a junkyard and take the rear number plate holder from that, right now is not a priority. The headliner will also remain among the last things from the to-do list.
I had the same problem with the instrument cluster on the quattro when i bought it and it's a easy fix. I could swap them but the Bord Computers are a bit different: on the TQ it displayed the turbo boost, on the FWD it displays the instant fuel consumption.

I have one question about the engine. The fuel injection distributors(the part from the top of the air filter box) from NF-engine and AAF-engine(or which is the 100 2.3 C4 equivalent) are compatible or are they different?

Thank you!

Gotta switch ya nick to 'NfFWD' or somethin'...

I should also switch the thread title to "My Audi 100 FWD 2.3NF"
...but i do miss a lot my TQ

[turbaxel]

I could swap them but the Bord Computers are a bit different: on the TQ it displayed the turbo boost, on the FWD it displays the instant fuel consumption.

Pardon me. Maybe I misunderstood you

But, have you ever tried to use the Bord Computer switch on the very end of the right control lever?
It's visible in your own interior image above. If you look close enough, you'll even see the white up/down arrows.


With it, you'd ought to switch the Bord Computer's output between Turbo boost, fuel consumption, range, ..., ...,

I have one question about the engine. The fuel injection distributors(the part from the top of the air filter box) from NF-engine and AAR-engine(or which is the 100 2.3 C4 equivalent) are compatible or are they different?

Well, this is an sample image of an MC:

You're talking about the stuff below and around #10, right?

That'd be a "Mengen-Teiler" in German. I'd say those are either identcal or very close on NFs, AARs or NGs (found in B3/B4s (Audi 80)). Mind, that's not a warranty.
Small changes can and will occurr So your milage may vary.

[mcquattro]

Hi,

Yes, I was talking about part 10. It was missing from the engine and I replaced with one from an AAR(Thanks for correction). I suspected that for the rough idle and engine stalling, but the engine runs smoohtly now, it needed only some adjusting. Woohoo, biggest problem solved .

About the BC, i'm sorry, I wasn't clear. My english is a bit rough. I meant that because the NF doesn't have a turbo, on the BC instead of the turbo boost it is displayed the instant fuel consumption( the rest I think are the same)

[turbaxel]

No prob,

you're still doing exceptionally good
Ok, thanks for having cleared up my misconceptions

I wish you'll be able to solve all other probs this way, too.

[mcquattro]

Hi,

A little update:-D. I had a problem with the engine start up(it was starting very difficult), but now the engine starts and runs perfectly. I love the sound of the engine on full throtle ... i think that it sounds a lot better than my old turbo.

But I have another problem. Any ideea why I feel the ABS engaging, during very light braking, right before the car comes to a complete stop? At higher speed the ABS is working normaly and it engages only under hard braking. Is it some speed senzor? I guess that the ABS main unit from the quattro isn't compatible with the one from the FWD(they have different codes), to try to swap them and see if the problems disapears.

Thank you!

[turbaxel]

Hi,

you`re right. The non-turbo fivebanger isn`t damped by the turbo, so it`s sound is much, much better
You can even remove a short part of the intake manifold, wich will blow you away. It`s pretty hard to describe, but may be you`ll find it

The ABS problem. I`d seriously check all 4 ABS sensors, all 4 ABS cables (especially their connectors) and the according ABS gears which can easyly be dirty or damaged. I once had the same failure while having a dirty abs gear on such a car.

Here you can see the ABS Sensor and the underlying gear (right on the inside edge of the brake disk):


The ABS on FWD/AWD will proably be different, I`m sorry.

[mcquattro]

The ABS works normally at higher speeds. The problem is when the car is very close to a complete stop. I think that the ABS sees the stopping of the wheels spining ,when the car is almost stationary, like the locking of the wheels during very hard braking at higher speeds. As far as I know, the ABS should be disabled under a certain speed(under 6Km/h ? ). From where is the ABS-unit reading the speed of the car? I tried to look on the electrical diagram, but i didn't managed to identify this

[turbaxel]

The ABS has it's wheel sensors.



Once again, I had the same symptoms.