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The efforts of bleeding the brakes (without the ABS system).

Verfasst: 16.10.2007, 13:46
von 4Circles
Hello to your all!

Now for my 1st technical one:

I´ve looked through all possible topics at www.nordicaudi.com (a swedish site NOT specialized as an 100 m/44 - site) and searched the Internet about this problem as I´ve not succeded to bleed these brakes by the "old fashioned" way together with a second person behind the steering wheel... :-(
On this site the conclusion to this is clear:
1) You WILL face problems at the brake pressure regulator on the drivers
side in the rear behind the wheel;
2) This bleeding method is "obsolete" on cars like ours;
3) One HAVE to set the system under pressure at ~ 0,8 > 1,25 bar.

HAS anyone of you managed to do it WITHOUT the need of pressure?
IF so: in what way does YOUR method differ from what I´ve mentioned abobe?

Regards & thank´s in advance
Tony

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 11:11
von turbaxel
Ho Tony,

as far as I understood your question, you've asked about possible ways to remove the air form the brake fluid system, right? I couldn't relate any other possible meaning to 'brake bleeding'...

If so, once again here's a bit of bad english: ;)

http://babel.altavista.com/babelfish/tr ... l%25fcften

The german words used to describe the process are "Bremse entlüften" or "Bremsen entlüften". If you google, you'll find a lot of info. And AFAIK, the other contemporary Audi/VW (B3, B4, C4) cars require the same process.

@ the type 44, the manual air removal process is quite much, as you've described. One person behind the steering wheel, one person at the rear brake caliper.



Good luck,
turbaxel

Turbaxel!

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 11:31
von 4Circles
A brand new day for new knowledge! :D

Thank you very much for this post!
I will also try out your suggestions about searching by german words when I´m now have been given them in the correct way and spelling.

Have you done this to an m/44 without the ABS and succeded by the old fashioned way..? If so I will go :shock: !

Kindest regards & once again thank´s
Tony

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 11:47
von turbaxel
Hi Tony,

I was the one behind the steering wheel of a 1985 or 1986 VFL and have since been told, it's got no abs.

I had to pump the paddle and shout every time, so it's the same old process ;)

Btw: There are us english books rows (from Bentley), who'll describe this and other 'every day' tasks quite well. If that's not an option, there are several german ones: 'Jetzt helfe ich mir selbst!' ('Now I help myself!' from Korp) and 'So wird's gemacht' (from Etzold)

All of 'em, can be ordered via Amazon, I should think and the german ones you could scan and autotranslate by yourself ;)

Bentley...

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 12:12
von 4Circles
Good to hear from you Turbaxel!

Thank you so much.
I have since years the "brick-thick" Bentley manual published by AUDI of North America, purchased on eBay in CAN for $20, but this one is for the years 1984,-85 and -86.

In that chapter on page 47.4 there in nothing the reader is told about any other alternative process but the
"Do you press the pedal, honey, while I´m tightening the nipple..?" - rotuine! :D

I JUST WOULD LOVE this chapter from the later edition for my year of the car - do you..? ;)

Regards
Tony

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 12:14
von turbaxel
Sorry, I don't ;)

One of the reasons I decided to create the SD ;)


But which year's model do you have? And has it got an abs?

AFAIK, every type44, even the top-of-the-line 20V and V8 do have a comparable brake system (with the infamous "druck speicher" (pressure cache or reservoir) and hence share the same air removal process.

Turbaxel!

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 12:51
von 4Circles
Hi there & thank´s!

N.B.! :D :D :D :D :D

My car is mentioned under each post and the start of this subject is entitled ".... (without the ABS system"). BIG :respekt:

ALL aspects and ideas are most welcome on this subject!

I have to go out for a while, but I´ll be back later today.

Kindest regards & looking forward to keep on
Tony

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 13:52
von turbaxel
Yeah, as they say here around: "Those, who can READ do have an advantage" ;)

Well, I do have a '89 MC FWD and a '90 20V, the above mentioned should be valid for your's as well. The abs results in different brake calipers, in missing abs sensors, but in nothin' else :)

Remark, in Germany, production of the type 44 ended in '90, so I can only assume, they sold the remaining cars in '90 in the oversees markets (sorry, couldn't resist that one) ;)

Im back! ;-)

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 17:46
von 4Circles
Turbaxel,

Hi there again!

The great link that you did provided in one of the earlier posts say that the maximum pressure for cars without the ABS system is 0,8 bar.
This is great to know! :P
BUT the link say nothing about the need to set the system under pressure...

I know some about the german language - so I know what I have to do -SEARCH the web! :D

Some members on nordicaudi.com here in SWE claim that they have blown the brake fluid reservoar to the hood when reaching ~ 1,3 > 1,5 bar...
+++++
I have ALWAYS said that the original manufacturers manual is the one to use and to get the actual facts from to avoid such costly mistakes! ;)
+++++

About 1990 vs 1991: if the car left the line a few weeks later and it gives me a car that is "one year younger", I can get along with that... :D

But when I hear the word "overseas" I most likely think about the Atlantic Ocean, not the Baltic Sea between our two countries, right!?

Kindest regards
Tony

I know, I know I was wrong...

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 18:05
von 4Circles
Turbaxel,

Now I´m the one to blame for not remember what I have read... :oops:

The link DOES say how to use the "Ueberdruckmaschine".

As Peggy Bundy in Married with children say to Al: "You stink!"
THIS IS MEANT FOR ME!!! :D

I´ve already started the seach for the facts in german - wish me luck, thank´s!
Regards
Tony

PLEASE!

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 18:42
von 4Circles
Hi folks!
I get the picture BUT I would appreciate some help with some of it to be
100% sure what it says, thank you:


Diese im Zubehör-Handel erhältlichen Teile sind nach meiner eigenen Erfahrung prinzipiell nicht geeignet, eine Bremsanlage zu entlüften.
= The tools for bleeding a brake system with pressure to be found in the shops are not to be used/recommended.

Ich habe das Teil 3 mal an 3 verschiedenen Fahrzeugen ausprobiert und jedesmal wurde zwar Bremsflüssigkeit abgepumpt aber gleichzeitig auch Luft in das System eingebracht !!
= I have used such a set for three times on three ____ cars ________
and I had the brake fluid ______ and air in the system!!

Ich kann es mir nur so erklären, dass wenn man das System dem Unterdruck aussetzt (wofür es nicht konstruiert ist !), tatsächlich durch alle möglichen Wege (Aussen-) Luft ins System eindringt.
= I can only____when one set the system under pressure (and it´s not designed to be pressureized!), the air might be sucked into the system from several different points (?).

Am I FAR away from the truth here or...? :roll:

Regards & thank´s in advance for any help
Tony

Re: PLEASE!

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 21:54
von turbaxel
Hi Tony.

Diese im Zubehör-Handel erhältlichen Teile sind nach meiner eigenen Erfahrung prinzipiell nicht geeignet, eine Bremsanlage zu entlüften.
These units, available in (3rd party) automotive shops, are in my personal expierience in principle not capable to remove the air form a brake system.

Ich habe das Teil 3 mal an 3 verschiedenen Fahrzeugen ausprobiert und jedesmal wurde zwar Bremsflüssigkeit abgepumpt aber gleichzeitig auch Luft in das System eingebracht !!
I used the unit with a whole selection of cars. And each time break fluid was pumped out, but air was introduced at the same time.

Ich kann es mir nur so erklären, dass wenn man das System dem Unterdruck aussetzt (wofür es nicht konstruiert ist !), tatsächlich durch alle möglichen Wege (Aussen-) Luft ins System eindringt.
I can only explain it to me this way: If you expose the system to low pressure (below the surrounding athmospheric pressure) air will enter the system by a lot of possible ways.

Verfasst: 17.10.2007, 22:04
von turbaxel
Just a few words on bleeding conventional brake systems. I think this ist absolutely and completely true for the Audi, as well.

" Bleeding brakes is not one of my personal favorite jobs. There seems to be a bit of black magic involved with the bleeding process. Sometimes it will work perfectly, and then other times it seems like you end up with a lot of air in your system. The best strategy to follow when bleeding your brakes is to repeat the procedure several times in order to make sure that you have removed all the trapped air from the system.

The right tools are a necessary part of the job too. A few days before this book was to be sent off to my editor, I had a chance to evaluate a new type of pressure brake bleeder kit from Motive Products. Retailing for about $45, this kit attaches to the top of the master cylinder reservoir and applies pressurized air to the system. Brake fluid is forced out of the master cylinder reservoir and into the system. The pressurized kit is probably the best one around because it is the least likely to create air bubbles in the system. There was a time when no one was manufacturing pressurized bleeders, but thankfully Motive Products now supplies this excellent quality kit at a reasonable cost.

The pressurized system works very well because it pushes the brake fluid out of the reservoir and into the system. In this manner, it is very unlikely to create air bubbles in the system. When small air bubbles form in the brake lines, the entire system suffers as the brake pedal becomes soft. This is because air is much more compressible than the brake fluid. When you push on the pedal, the air trapped in the lines acts like a spring inside of the system. The air becomes compressed, absorbing energy from the system, instead of directing the energy towards pushing the caliper piston against the brake disc.

A second alternative is the vacuum bleeding kit. This kit works in the opposite manner of the pressure bleeder, applying a vacuum to the brake system in order to draw brake fluid out of the car. The system works well, but can sometimes cause air bubbles to form in the lines. Particularly on cars with rear brake proportioning valves like the Porsche 914, the vacuum system can leave air trapped in these valves, giving a spongy pedal as a result. When using the vacuum bleeding system, the best approach is to bleed each corner of the car several times, in order assure that all the air is out of the system. Simply fill up your brake reservoir, attach the pump system, pump up some vacuum, and then open the bleed nipple. Brake fluid should be pulled out of the system when the vacuum is applied. If it’s not – you may have a problem with your brake lines.

The third and most labor intensive method of bleeding your brakes involves actually having an assistant press on the pedal while you go around to each wheel and bleed the system. Without a doubt, this is the most effective method of bleeding, and should probably be used as a final procedure when performing any brake system bleeding. This method actually pushes fluid through the system (similar to the pressure-fed system) at a high rate of velocity. Sometimes, air bubbles that are in the system can become dislodged and cleared out by the quick rush of brake fluid when you press on the brake pedal.

The procedure for bleeding the brakes using the brake pedal is pretty straightforward. Attach a small rubber hose to the brake caliper nipple and let the other end hang inside an empty container. Ask your assistant to firmly and quickly press on the pedal 3 times, and hold it down the third time. Then, open up the bleed nipple by unscrewing it slightly. Brake fluid should come rushing out and the pedal should sink to the floor. Make sure that your assistant doesn’t remove his or her foot from the pedal, as that will suck air back into the system. With the pedal still depressed to the floor, tighten up the bleed nipple. When the nipple is closed, have your assistant remove their foot from the pedal.

I recommend that you use this procedure as a final step, even if you are vacuum or pressure bleeding. The high force associated with the pressure from the brake pedal can help free air and debris in the lines. If the brake fluid doesn’t exit the nipple quickly, then you might have a clog in your lines. Brake fluid that simply oozes out of the lines slowly is a clear indication that your rubber lines might be clogged and constricted. Don’t ignore these warning signs – check out the brake lines while you are working in this area."

http://www.drivewerks.com/tech/mult_bleed_brakes2.htm

I´m back!

Verfasst: 22.10.2007, 19:25
von 4Circles
Turbaxel,

Thank´s for the "novel"! BIG :D

Now, my problem is NOT that I´m not familiar with the different ways of bleeding brake systems - it´s how to get the air out of them with the
brake pressure regulator that´s the problem!
As I have also said, a LOT of people on the swedish site www.nordicaudi.com and elsewhere do have serious problems getting rid of the air and the feeling of a "soft" pedal, over and over again on these cars...

In the beginning of this thread I was looking for an "alternative" method
resulting in a VERY GOOD system.

I´ve been working with cars for almost 35 years, mostly MB and AUDI.

I still have air in my system after several attempts.

To have it pressurized will PROBABLY be the only way to get it back to it´s original condition - and a solid pedal.
Tony